I'm interested in knowing what people have experienced with a minimalist approach to body building. FE: Has anyone gone from a HIT-based program to a
traditional body builder approach and made better gain? Vice versa? If you've got photos, please feel free to post. I have recently upped my volume
considerably - nearly thrice what I have done in the past both in terms of volume and sets per exercise. I was hoping for a jump in lean mass but alas, not a
drop of extra muscle has been added that I can see. I did this in conjunction with the 6 Week Cure since my daily protein intake over the past 3 months has
been quite consistent and of high quality.
Experiences with a minimalist approach to training
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 Serious Strength |
Experiences with a minimalist approach to training |
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Posts: 4364 (10/24/09 05:03:27) |
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Sumo |
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Posts: 1581 (10/24/09 08:21:14) |
Fred, I notice that you have gotten rid of your leg press and chest press videos and now have only a leg extension one;
Fred if you are going all bodybuilder then you will need to do big exercises;
The idea with "volume" in bodybuilding is to build up the amount that you can do. Volume being weight × reps rather than simply reps or sets. So if you are going volume make sure it is weight × reps - also you don't want to be training to failure on volume or else you will get smaller. When I commented to a bodybuilder friend of mine doing volume that he could rep away for sets like a machine, he said, "Yes, its what I am used to!" |
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Mike Donofrio |
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Posts: 59 (10/25/09 02:20:46) |
Fred,
It has been years since I pursued growth for the sake of growth, but the best gains that I personally ever made was using the old-fashioned 20-rep breathing squat method, coupled with total body workouts 2-3 times per week. The maximum squat that I was ever able to do for 20 reps was 335, and I took my overall bodyweight from about 215 to a maximum weight of 248. I will add that I ate a high protein/high carb diet/low fat diet at that time (north of 5000 cals./day on days that I trained) and while I certainly gained fat, I also gained muscle to the point that I was accused of juicing by my friends. (This gain took place over about a year's time when I was 42-43 years old, and then I decided to cut back down after my wife's negative comments - she hated my body at that size. Today, at 210 I carry significantly more muscle than before I undertook my bulking phase 8 years ago, so I regard the experiment to be a success.) I would consider a 20-rep squat program to be a moderate volume program, with more volume than what you recommend, but less than traditional bodybuilding programs, with the emphasis on multi-joint compound movements - free weights only, no machines can be found in my garage. The single most anabolic thing that a person can do is to EAT - morbidly obese people who do zero restance trainng carry more lean mass on their frames than people who are lean and train diligently. If one is not supporting his resistance training with an excess caloric balance that includes adequate protein, it is utterly impossible gain mass, irregardless of the amount of protein that one consumes. (Perhaps an untrained beginner might be able to gain some minimal muscle mass while in a calorie deficit.) Why would one expect to gain any appreciable muscle while on an extreme low calorie diet such as the 6-week cure? You are fortunate if you did not lose any muscle mass - most bodybuilders lose a lot of muscle just trying to lose their last few pounds of fat for a contest. You have to match your training goals with your nutrition practices. I agree with Sumo about the need to be doing some heavy, free weight compound work. Heavy squats and deadlifts alone will add significant mass, particularly when one has not incorporated these movements into his training on a regular basis previously. |
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Sumo |
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Posts: 1581 (10/25/09 08:41:56) |
Yup you certainly have to eat and do big stuff - I actually gained a kilo after the squats in the video, maybe its just blubber but it means I am now heavier
than ever before at a massive 177 lbs.
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Serious Strength |
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Posts: 4364 (10/25/09 14:12:58) |
Sumo wrote: Sumo you are not a body builder. You don't focus on getting larger. You do the big exercises and do not seem to grow much so forgive me but I think I'll pass on your advice. |
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Sumo |
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Posts: 1581 (10/26/09 05:30:59) |
But Fred... I am still getting bigger without trying to.
If I were to train with leg extensions and foo-foo stuff then I would be the size of a small gerbil. I reckon it is only your genetics that is allowing you to not be a gerbil on such exercises. Besides if your argument is that you only listen to those with huge muscles then you definitely should not be training like you do. |
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Serious Strength |
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Posts: 4364 (10/26/09 08:09:37) |
Sumo wrote: Jaun - a favor. Don't reply if you've got nothing meaningful to add. I know several large people who train using a minimalist approach. I know people who hit the gym everyday almost and don't look that good. I know many who take an inbetween approach. I am interested in the opinions of people who are into body building and their experiences using a minimalist approach. You are not a body builder. That fried of yours in the video on the strength training for strength thread - Mitch was it? Why is he so much larger than you do you suppose? Genetics? Luck? Beer? |
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Kevin40 |
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Posts: 411 (10/27/09 07:03:21) |
When I was into body building a couple of approaches worked pretty well. One was an HIT method used by Dr. Ken. Many warm-up sets followed by a big effort
with heavy weight set. Keep adding weight to the bar and keep eating. The second method was utlizing low rep sets with very heavy weights and compressed rest
periods - getting a pump with very heavy weights. Heavy weights (with compound exercises) and heavy on the food seems to be the trick.
Hope this helps. |
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sb413197 |
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Posts: 625 (10/27/09 10:59:53) |
Kevin40 wrote: That's what I'm thinking. The bodybuilders I'm aware of almost always use a cutting-bulking scheme of some sort, and during the time when they're trying to gain weight (bulking) their diet is usually rich in carbohydrates and calories. Fred, from what you've described, you are eating the kind of diet normally associated with a bodybuilder's "cutting" phase that is low in carbohydrates and moderate in calories; you can run this by the bodybuilder you trained with but I'd wager that the biggest thing to do would be to up your carb and calorie consumption. The training volume is going to be largely "wasted" if you aren't getting enough fuel to grow from.
Steve Brose
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Sumo |
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Posts: 1581 (10/27/09 12:44:19) |
Serious Strength wrote:Fred, you are not making any sense. You berate me for suggesting that your results are due to genetics and that you have not shrunk from slow training on foo-foo exercises.... and then come back at me using exactly the same argument, i.e. that you know many people who are large and strong and use foo-foo exercises!!! You also haven't presented any convincing evidence of your side, for example Doug Holland does deadlifts to improve his deadlifts as you showed in the video, your friend Jim doesn't train like you do and instead does trap bar stuff - so I am wondering where you get the notion that big strong people are using slowburn in the fashion that you do? Are you suggesting that squats/deads and other big exercises for medium reps at normal speed are not the best way of getting big and strong? If so it is contrary to what every big and strong person in history has ever said, so the onus is on you to provide the evidence. And how do you expect to gain size whilst on a cutting diet? |
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Serious Strength |
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Posts: 4364 (10/28/09 09:28:32) |
sb413197 wrote: True but you grow from fat and proteins - not from carbs save for growing fat. I'm well over 200 grams of protein a day and about 60% fat. Why would a lack of carbs keep me from growing muscle? |
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Lincoln |
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Posts: 2027 (10/28/09 10:36:05) |
If you're in a calorie deficit mode, are you going to build muscles out of air molecules? If growing a pound of bodyfat takes 3,500 calories then how many
calories does it take to grow a pound of muscle? How "motivated" is the body going to be build muscle when it's already scrounging and scavenging
around for calories?
"...the man who really counts in the world is the doer, not the mere critic-the man who actually does
the work, even if roughly and imperfectly, not the man who only talks or writes about how it ought to be done." Teddy
Roosevelt
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sb413197 |
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Posts: 625 (10/28/09 15:59:07) |
Serious Strength wrote: Honestly? I have no idea why carbs make bodybuilders grow muscle. I can speculate that it has sometime to do with the response to insulin (and some bodybuilders actually inject insulin thinking it promotes an anabolic response - very dangerous!) but who knows really - I certainly don't. If you read on google you'll see a lot of stuff about that. Or maybe it's due to glycogen storage. But irregardless of the biochemical explanation, that's the way it's usually done, and it seems to work well.
Steve Brose
Last Edited By: sb413197
10/28/09 16:01:49.
Edited 1 times.
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Kevin40 |
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Posts: 411 (10/29/09 05:39:59) |
True but you grow from fat and proteins - not from carbs save for growing fat. I'm well over 200 grams of protein a day and about 60% fat. Why would a lack
of carbs keep me from growing muscle?
Aren't there bodybuilders who eat mainly carbs and gain muscle without a problem? What about Dorian Yates/Mike Mentzer - they were high carb proponents? (I know - tons of roids.) High carbs were the way to go for BBers in the 80's and there are still some around today. Darden still preaches high carbs. I'm not sure if it's optimal for building muscle, but I don't think it's accurate to state that carbs only build fat. |
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Lincoln |
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Posts: 2027 (10/29/09 09:09:59) |
Kevin, maybe it's more accurate to say that a lack of carbs might force the body to use [dietary] fat and protein for energy that might otherwise be used
for muscle growth?
"...the man who really counts in the world is the doer, not the mere critic-the man who actually does
the work, even if roughly and imperfectly, not the man who only talks or writes about how it ought to be done." Teddy
Roosevelt
Last Edited By: Lincoln
10/29/09 11:18:27.
Edited 1 times.
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sb413197 |
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Posts: 625 (10/29/09 16:21:03) |
For those who are ready for some pain, here is a little introductory reading on the biochemistry of insulin, and it's actions with regard to muscle
(can't believe I'm reading this horrible stuff again - been about 8 years now hahaha)
http://www.biochem.arizona.edu/classes/bioc460/summer/460web/lecture/metabolism/insulin-signal.pdf http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/pancreas/insulin_phys.html Man, reminds you how quickly you forget things - biochemistry was kind of my "sub-major" within pre-med chemistry, once upon a time (now we're talking 10+ years ago)....
Steve Brose
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sb413197 |
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Posts: 625 (10/29/09 16:26:47) |
And here we have an article that is, in my opinion, a bit...uh, "tangential" in terms of scientific validity, but kind of gets at what I'm
talking about with regards to bodybuilders' feelings about insulin (and i.e. carbohydrate intake to build muscle), and this has sort of become a
"standard" thing that is recommended now so there might be some truth to it:
http://www.tmuscle.com/fr...nabolic_power_of_insulin I have to admit that through self-experimentation I've drifted towards "allowing" myself a dessert after a good hard workout. And it seems to work better that way - if I'm going to eat sugar, that seems to be a relatively un-harmful (?most helpful) time to do it. Maybe the exercise is priming me for better insulin sensitivity, maybe it's something else, who knows.
Steve Brose
Last Edited By: sb413197
10/29/09 16:35:45.
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Kevin40 |
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Posts: 411 (10/30/09 07:37:10) |
"Kevin, maybe it's more accurate to say that a lack of carbs might force the body to use [dietary] fat and protein for energy that might otherwise
be used for muscle growth?"
Yes, that may be a better way to look at it. I think most would agree that carbs are the fuel of choice for intense training(?) I've seen/known some people who've done pretty well without much protien in their dietts. Here's an interesting blurb from a Body Building site on the importance of carbs - I'm sure there will be some who will vehemently agree. Your body responds to CALORIES. Food, regardless of what type, is digested in the stomach, gets converted into a form of ENERGY, gets sent to the bloodstream, gets transferred to the different tissues and organs, where it is then used how your body best sees fit. It isn't the fact that you are eating carbs or eating fats that make people overweight, it's the fact that they are eating too many calories, either per day or per sitting!!!!! If you want to gain weight, you cannot go on a low fat or carb diet. I repeat, you CANNOT. Your body needs those calories. It is impossible to get enough calories from just protein to build muscle. Also, it is carbs that gets converted into glucose, which is the ONLY thing that your muscles can use to provide energy to a muscle when it is working out, and is the only substance in the body that pushes water and other nutrients into a muscle, which adds to the volume, size, and weight of a muscle…….NOT protein! It is fats that your body uses to line the muscle cells and creates the hormones that help build muscle mass, like testosterone……not protein! In my next article I'll write about the 3rd protein myth that's being spread. |
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Sumo |
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Posts: 1581 (11/02/09 13:00:43) |
Fred, you haven't answered the question as to what you consider a 'mass' building program to be - I am under the impression that it consists of small slow exercises on your machines;
I note you have deleted the videos of yourself doing leg presses, pulldowns and dips on your machines so am wondering whether this is because you favour the even smaller exercises for mass? The only exercises which have done anything for me are the big exercises, hence for example I noted that after doing the following session I gained 2 lbs!
Obviously that wouldn't happen after each squat session but it is an indicator of the Squat's mass building qualities. I also noted, "The idea with "volume" in bodybuilding is to build up the amount that you can do. Volume being weight × reps rather than simply reps or sets. So if you are going volume make sure it is weight × reps - also you don't want to be training to failure on volume or else you will get smaller." It might seem logical that deadlifts would be equally as good at mass building but they don't seem to quite match up on the mass side, I tend to say that whilst Squats are the King of the Muscle Builders that Deadlifts are the King of the Strength Builders;
I don't see how doing the small machine stuff you do could possibly work, though I admit in my HIT days I devoutly believed that they should.
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Serious Strength |
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Posts: 4364 (11/03/09 04:35:18) |
Lincoln wrote:There are no calorie receptors in the body. The body doesn't "scrounge around" for calories. If adequate protein and fat are made available and carbs are low, fat will be released from the fat cells for energy and muscle will grow. |
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Serious Strength |
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Posts: 4364 (11/03/09 04:58:52) |
Sumo wrote: |
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