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Sumo wrote:

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Fred wrote:

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But they are working Juan as I am larger than you. You do all this heavy work with the "big" exercises and you are average to small. You're arms are certainly smallish.

Yes Fred! But this has to be taken in context. If you didn't train you would probably balloon to around 350 lbs whereas if I didn't train I would diminish to about 145 lbs... in fact I've gained another 1 lb just from having this discussion on big exercises.

****Juan don't be weird alright?

My query is with the small amount of work that is required for each of your lifts compared to the stuff that I am advocating. Thus you will already have seen the reps I did with 143 kg squats and 153 kg deadlifts add up to much more work than you do in an entire workout (I'm judging this based on your latest videos). Whilst the total work of each of my sets in the aformentioned 143 kg squats and 153 kg deadlifts is perhaps greater than a whole workout of yours there is also the matter of work per rep.

****Total work is only part of the picture Juan. If you squatted 30 pounds 100 times you'd perform the same work as 300 10 times. One would do nothing to spark growth the other a substantial amount.

Take the following video which I performed a few minutes after the doing the 143 kg squats for 2 sets of 5 reps;

You said earlier, "Juan... impressive. Don't blow a gasket." (see here) - so you presumably recognise that I put more work and effort into a rep than you do into a whole set. Or take this rep;

Again you can see that I am putting more effort or work into a rep than you do into an entire workout.

Compare this to;

And you will see that there is no comparison to the sort of tension I generate.

****I disagree for several reasons but on the subject of tension, the amount of direct work/tension my quads are doing/experiencing in the leg extension exercise is quite significant. It is impossible to judge how much more direct tension they are outputting compared to your squat or deadlift. (In your deadlift you barley even move the weight a few inches and you are near lock out to start.) And, at least these days, I usually do workouts akin to this:

leg extension 334# X 4
leg curl 300# X 5
leg extension 294# X 3
leg press 636# X 8
hip extension 330# X 5
leg press 636# X 5
hip abduction 200# X 5
hip adduction 155# X 4
hip flexion 50# X 5
back extension 220# X5
calf press 840# X 6

All using weights that are heavy enough to render muscualr failure in 40-70 seconds. So the total work I do for my legs 2X a week is probably more than what you do.

The requirement of a smooth 'proper form' rep means the effort isn't 'real' - thus you keep saying that for each exercise you are actually moving as fast as possible but from the jerky motions in your videos it is clear you are trying to move at a pre-determined speed, combine this with small exercises and you have a considerably reduced workload and considerably reduced stimulus for strength or muscle.

****Wait - you're suggesting the effort isn't 'real?' That's just silly. What is it then - imagined? And sometimes I do shift a bit in the machines to get settled but so what? I am not moving as fast as possible on the 1st rep and depending on the exercise I do, I do deliberatley slow the rep as in chest press end point to avoid unloading or lockout. We've discussed this before ad nauseum. And look at the way you snap lock your knees straight in the squat video does this mean your weight isn't heavy? In fact, you could not do half the reps you do now if you stopped the squat 3 inches short of lockout and took no pause at the top.

Sumo wrote:

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Fred wrote:

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****Juan don't be weird alright?

****Total work is only part of the picture Juan. If you squatted 30 pounds 100 times you'd perform the same work as 300 10 times. One would do nothing to spark growth the other a substantial amount.

****I disagree for several reasons but on the subject of tension, the amount of direct work/tension my quads are doing/experiencing in the leg extension exercise is quite significant. It is impossible to judge how much more direct tension they are outputting compared to your squat or deadlift. (In your deadlift you barley even move the weight a few inches and you are near lock out to start.) And, at least these days, I usually do workouts akin to this:

leg extension 334# X 4
......
calf press 840# X 6

All using weights that are heavy enough to render muscualr failure in 40-70 seconds. So the total work I do for my legs 2X a week is probably more than what you do.

****Wait - you're suggesting the effort isn't 'real?' That's just silly. What is it then - imagined? And sometimes I do shift a bit in the machines to get settled but so what? I am not moving as fast as possible on the 1st rep and depending on the exercise I do, I do deliberatley slow the rep as in chest press end point to avoid unloading or lockout. We've discussed this before ad nauseum. And look at the way you snap lock your knees straight in the squat video does this mean your weight isn't heavy? In fact, you could not do half the reps you do now if you stopped the squat 3 inches short of lockout and took no pause at the top.

Fred just because someone points out your logical fallacies doesn't mean they are being weird. Thus if you didn't train you would probably balloon to around +300 lbs whereas if I didn't train I would diminish to about 145 lbs... I get skinnier, you get fatter. See your photo on the beach at Firiplaka here... and that was just a few weeks of no training!!!! And I have indeed gained another 1 lb on top of the 2 lbs I gained from the squats. The 1 lb being from the recent repetition deadlifts I've been doing.

****Glad to hear your getting larger. I got fatter Juan because I was drinking full carb beers, eating dinner at 11 PM, etc. In sum, I was eating and drinking like a pig on my vacation in Greece. The amazing thing is how fat I DIDN'T get.

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Fred I would hope that I don't have to point out the fallacy of comparing 30 pounds 100 times to 300 pounds 10 times. Obviously we both understand that the work must be at a certain % of 1RM.

****It's the same work Juan. Point being work alone is only part of the picture. The work I perform is challenging for me - my muscles - works to stimulate a positive tissue adaptation. If I quit what I do and took up your regimen I would not grow any larger any faster than I am now. There's no magic to the squat. Heavy leg presses are quite challenging - they would be for you too even on my equipment.

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Fred you list your exercises which shows that you do '30 pounds 100 times' compared to my '300 pounds 10 times'... It is quite easy to render muscular failure by putting them under constant tension, anything over about 40% of max tension will render failure due to occlusion of the blood vessels...

****No. Not true at all. I guess you're not used to doing so much work in one day. It's when failure is achieved that matters. Much past 120 seconds seems to be of little benefit to hypertrophy. I don't have the desire to cite the references right now.

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Yes your effort isn't 'real' - I am sure that it is painful because occlusion of the blood vessels is painful but just because its painful doesn't mean it is productive, for that you must lift heavy weights on big exercises and not magnified machine weights. I mean really... do you think that lifting 840 lbs on calf press machine or 294 lbs on leg extension actually equates to these weights... really. The funny thing is when I, some time ago, stated that I had no success from HIT, you stated that I wasn't training hard enough, that my effort wasn't real... I mean that's a bit of a weird statement.

****No, they don't equate to the weights you are using. I never suggested such. Like I've said many times, if you trained at my gym you'd experience the same level of muscle tension - or greater in some instances. I never said your effort wasn't real when you did HIT. Strawman. I said that you were the only person I have ever heard of who got NO success from HIT. Getting NO success is virtually impossible. I do beleive you said that you didn't get any stronger - at all except on leg extensions. One might say "I got good results from HIT but better results came from less intensity and more volume" - this I could swallow. Getting NO results from 10 years of HIT strongly suggests you were doing something wrong. I think anyone who has had any experience with HIT would agree. Stronger was never the issue with HIT - larger was.

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Again my proposition is that for weight gain that one only need perform for repetitions the following sort of big exercises;

That plus a few big 'strongman' type lifts will give one superhuman all round strength. I am sure that is perfectly sensible and not at all weird...

****This is different from what you were saying before Juan. I agree that the "big" exercises will indeed create larger, stronger muscles on anyone who eats well. But adding other exercises in like biceps curls, chest flys, etc. will indeed contribute to greater all around size gains. Like I said, I highly doubt you will find a body builder who will ditch biceps curls and triceps extensions for building the largest arms possible. Do you disagree?

sb413197 wrote:

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Serious Strength wrote:

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Steve - what kind of MD are you?

We've been communicating awhile - I'll tell you about myself a bit since you have told quite a bit about yourself over the years, and I feel like we've gotten to know each other a bit and respect each other's thoughts on things. I am a spinal cord injury medicine fellow (physiatry sub-specialty). I am a recent residency graduate where I was chief resident in PM+R. I have a career focus on neuro-rehab with of course the vast emphasis being upon spinal cord injury medicine, but I have interests in musculoskeletal and sports medicine as well, particularly with regards to the shoulder (due to the great significance to persons with spinal cord injuries, and some of my research has been along the lines of musculoskeletal ultrasound and physical examination in persons with spinal cord injuries - feel free to read the article). My degree is DO actually, not MD, but my residency was allopathic (I think there is only one DO PM+R residency). In case you're curious, the osteopathic profession teaches manual medicine in addition to a philosophic slant emphasizing viewing the body as a whole as opposed to a disconnected series of parts, but the core medical training is the same in both the osteopathic and allopathic professions. Only 10% of DOs actually use manual medicine (I am in this 10%, despite my "neuro" focus I still find the occasional opportunity). My other research interests include neuro-prosthetics, quality improvement (proton pump inhibitor over-use), robotics, manual medicine, critical illness neuropathy, compartment syndrome and neurogenic bowel.

Naturally, lifting is a hobby for me, I find lifting relaxing and enjoyable and it keeps me sane. And it's just plain fun! I find the discussions on these boards to be entertaining and a welcome diversion from my work, and I learn things on them.

So anyway. What is your reasoning behind performing multi-joint exercises Fred (i.e. non-isolation - although you can argue isolation isn't really possible anyway)?